Idea: API and pricing for it

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Idea: API and pricing for it

David Stark RJ: Zarkonnen CO: David Stark Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 53 Karma: 23 Joined: Apr 4, 2012	Posted on Apr 11, 2012 So there's now two scripts to assist with the UI, and I think it's only a matter of time before we start seeing fully-fledged bots. Given that bots are pretty much an inevitability, how about eventually implementing an API for operating EOS? (Listing markets and warehouse info, buying and selling, setting prices, building, researching, etc.) The advantage of an API would be that it would level the playing field by making it fairly easy to write bots. The API could also be geared towards efficiently fetching the information, reducing server load. But how do you prevent someone from refreshing the B2B market every 100 ms, or constantly putting up and taking off a product on the market to keep it at the top of the listing? Obviously, such violators can be detected and meteored, but how about building the limitation into the game itself, through API usage fees in in-game money. So getting the B2B market table in nice clean JSON would cost you $10, or maybe an amount scaled by your net worth. Putting up a sale would cost you $100, or maybe a 0.1% of total sales price commission, etc. Or make one API action per minute free and start pricing further actions at a steeper and steeper rate. This would also produce an interesting metagame for bot writers as they could figure out how to write bots that work well while not hurting the server.
Billy Vierra RJ: Saffrian CO: Billy Vierra Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 84 Karma: 100 Joined: Apr 10, 2012	Posted on Apr 12, 2012 A) Do we want bots? I really cannot think of one good reason to do this. B) If the API costs the program writer who would in effect be getting the service from EOS how would they recoup their fees? Any type of automation would have to be done from a server level since you would have to be on and the calls would all be coming from 1 user. C) I think a JSON interface would be great, I actually wrote one that scrapes from the site and then converts it to JSON so its easier to process with JS. In my 13+ years of programming I never got into JS and still don't like it all that much so I write all converters in perl. Takes a lot of the hard work out :) If there is no plan on an API / JSON officially anytime soon and Scott / whoever else has no issue I have no problem working with a few devs that may want access to it for the sole process of writing scripts that don't auto play for you. I actually toyed with the idea of creating an extension that basically took all the guess work out of the game and realized if I did that I would no longer be playing at all and neither would the majority of the people playing. They would be doing what the computer told them to.
David Stark RJ: Zarkonnen CO: David Stark Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 53 Karma: 23 Joined: Apr 4, 2012	Posted on Apr 12, 2012 (Last edited on Apr 12, 2012) A) I think it's more that they're an inevitability. B) I'm sorry, I can't quite parse this point. It may be the sleepy. So the idea is that you would have to identify yourself as a particular user in the system to be able to access the API. That user would then be charged money. C) I think preventing the game from being turned into a bunch of bots playing each other, or users using software to tell them what to do (which is like running a bot, but more tedious) is definitely quite important. Not sure how to do this though. My suggestions here only run as far as mitigating the impact of bots on the server infrastructure and the patience of the users.
Billy Vierra RJ: Saffrian CO: Billy Vierra Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 84 Karma: 100 Joined: Apr 10, 2012	Posted on Apr 12, 2012 A) While that may be true (I mean no matter what you add in there is some way around it), there are some ways to help prevent bots. It seems like a good logging system is already in place and can probably catch them. B) Yea I guess the user could do that. Maybe an OAuth token of some sort would work pretty well for it. C) The question really has to come down to what level of addon / enhancement will be allowed. Here are some examples I can think of off the top of my head in terms of low impact to high impact that could be done by a bot: * Changing the look and minor enhancement as far as showing time left (what we have for enhancements now) * An addon that shows your stock level, current costs on B2B, estimated sales per tick all on a single page * Same as previous addon and auto buys from store if certain parameters are correct and changes price depending on stock / current work price. All of these could be done in a FF / Chrome window using an extension pretty easily. If we could get some guidance from Scott / whomever else that I don't know of since they don't have admin as their name, as to what they feel is acceptable I think it would go a long way.
Roald Adriaansen RJ: Wuvil CO: Wuvil Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 146 Karma: 281 Joined: Feb 4, 2012	Posted on Apr 12, 2012 It would be VERY easy to know if someone is refreshing B2B every 100ms for hours on end...-> ban. Bots are generally very easy to detect and also to trick, half my income in EvE for instance comes from tricking market bots. Delisting and relisting is pointless as clicking on a product shows the cheapest on top, and listing fees soon come. I don't think saying bots are inevetable and changing the game to accommodate them is the right way, there are smarter ways of going about it, most of which links to game design. A smart player will still be better than a bot regardless.
Billy Vierra RJ: Saffrian CO: Billy Vierra Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 84 Karma: 100 Joined: Apr 10, 2012	Posted on Apr 12, 2012 No I agree, that's actually what I said about the logging system. The one thing to realize is that you will never be able to ban ALL bots. If someone really really wants to do it and has the knowledge, it can be done. The thing is to keep as many out as you can. Now as far as game design, it seems to me like the devs have so far embraced the extensions created thus far. One appears to have been 'Made Green' (I assume sticky of some sort on these forums). If they want the community to support them with things such as these addons, adding in an API will go a long way. However if they do not want them, it should be said before people put too much time into them :) Guidance for what they currently feel the addons will be allowed to do would also be nice (if they decide addons are ok). I would hate for anyone to build one and then get banned for it while feeling that what they made was ok.
Scott (Admin) RJ: Ratan Joyce CO: Ratan Joyce Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 1175 Karma: 5083 Joined: Jan 13, 2012	Posted on Apr 12, 2012 (Last edited on Apr 12, 2012) As a past MUD player who's done full-fledged bots using zMUD, I'm ok with fully-automated bots as long as you made them yourself. You just need to realize when your browser is open 24/7 with an active bot sitting there in your place, you'll no longer enjoy the game as much as you do now, but if you made the bot you'll at least gain some sense of achievement from the process of making/tweaking/fixing it. Besides, one of the goals for this game is to break from the traditional MMO rule of "time = money", so whatever scripts added into bots could be used as my guidelines on improving the game, and to make those scripts unnecessary. UI scripts like the ones currently released are not considered bots and are completely acceptable. Would I release actual API's and tokens in the near future? ... probably not.
Billy Vierra RJ: Saffrian CO: Billy Vierra Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 84 Karma: 100 Joined: Apr 10, 2012	Posted on Apr 12, 2012 Thanks for clearing that up Scott :)
David Stark RJ: Zarkonnen CO: David Stark Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 53 Karma: 23 Joined: Apr 4, 2012	Posted on Apr 12, 2012 Thanks for the explication. :)

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