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item rot [suggestion]
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Marshall Delstrego RJ: Marshall Delstrego CO: Marshall Delstrego Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 50 Karma: 33 Joined: May 1, 2012 |
Posted on Jun 1, 2012 just throwing some thoughts out there, for future consideration.Currently, there is no penalty to having infinite quantities of stuff stored. There are several ways to address this. 1) quality slowly decreases, when it drops to 0 - item poofs. (requires setting default quality of everything to say 15 instead of 0, and gets weird with the new quality mixing logic, since having ten million q0.01 oranges and making a thousand more q15.0s will make the fresh thousand spoil really, really quickly) 2) quantity slowly decreases - each item or item category would need its own half-life. probably a lot of work. (so yes, that 30m jet can last for 30 game-years, but if you don't sell it by then it rots away). (not sure yet how to tie this in with selling an old one and building a new one when you have 10 more already in stock) 3) you have to pay maintenance for your stuff (every tick/hour/day/week). if you can't, quality and/or quantity drops. (this will force people to move more of their stock more quickly). (the price can be as a very small % of wholesale cost, in fractions of a penny - the net total can be rounded to the nearest 0.01). however, it's not immediately clear which item(s) get smacked by the nerf if you can't afford maintenance) |
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Jim Frazer RJ: Kenneth Noisewater CO: Kenneth Noisewater Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 25 Karma: 31 Joined: Apr 14, 2012 |
Posted on Jun 1, 2012 Hmmm, to kind of expand on this, what about warehouses that can hold X quantity per m^2. A factory could hold a base amount of each product and then you could use a factory or store space to build a warehouse.This would need to be a future expansion thing, being as you would need to have each product with its own space consumption in the warehouse (ie: a strawberry takes up significantly less space than an air conditioner) This would encourage limiting product buildup while also allowing players the option to spend money + maintenance/salary costs to increase their storage capacity. |
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Svaha Woodhouse RJ: Svaha CO: Post Rating: -1 + / - Total Posts: 27 Karma: 50 Joined: Apr 5, 2012 |
Posted on Jun 1, 2012 ~To Marshall DelstregoIf I don't remember wrong, the boss defined 7 days outgame as a year ingame. And the production always keeps one rule "the more you produce at one time, the less it cost per unit." So if (1): If someone uses 24 hours to produce eggs, that means he produce eggs for a bit less than 2 months. Which would cause the eggs at extremely low quality when the production finished. (Do you think eggs can keep eatable after 2 months?) Some goods will rise its quality if you keep it in the right way(cheese' wine and some others goods.). And some goods even you keep it for a hundred year, after you clear the dust covered upon them,they'll be like new(gold and diamond for example). One feature of this game is that the goods you can produce are various. If you want to put rotting system in this game for realism, it'll be an annoying for both players and the boss. If (2): How should the goods be disappeared? By percentage? At now, 1/3 of my income will be eaten by salary and maintanance, 1/6 will be tax. Normally, the amount of goods I produced will able to sold at least for 7 days for keeping the production cost low(and less store management). If it decrease 5 percents a day (A bit less than 2 months ingame.And for food 5% is still too small.), it'll eat about 1/3 of my goods after a week. Thus my profit will be less than 1/6 of income, and I may never buy goods from B2B or IMP for it always cost more than 1/6 of the store price. Which means the B2B and IMP will disappear. And there will be little people capable of researching for extremely low profit. Also, for realism purpos, different goods should have different decay percentage, that will be a nightmare of the boss. Do you think this is fun? For (3) and Jim Frazer's opinion: Actually we have already pay maintenance fee for factories and stores. And in all fairness, (3) Marshall Delstrego said is included in that fee. If you think it's not enough, and want to separate it out and make people pay extra fee. Or, according to Jim Frazer's opinion, pay extra warehouse fee to make it more realistic. It'll disobey the rule "the more you produce at one time, the less it cost per unit.". Hence, people produce less' sell less in B2B' buy less from B2B->produce even less' sell even less' buy even less->produce even even less' sell even even less' buy even even less->...... It'll be a disaster in the ingame economy. And if you insist on warehouse system, the boss will has to set a new parameter for every goods - "Size". Because an egg will never as large as a jet. That will be a big adjustment for the boss to do, but only discourage the growing of economy in the game. Please make suggestions that make the game funner, not more annoying(for both players and the boss). Before you make any suggestion, have a deep meditation about it. That will make the suggestions more meaningful. |
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Jim Frazer RJ: Kenneth Noisewater CO: Kenneth Noisewater Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 25 Karma: 31 Joined: Apr 14, 2012 |
Posted on Jun 2, 2012 The problem is, "fun" is a relative term. For me, having to be concerned about how much storage space I have is part of the fun of managing a company. In Anno 2070, for example, you can conceivably set up a huge supply chain to sell to folks who visit your island. The problem is that your warehouses can only hold X units of goods. In order to hold more goods, you can produce more warehouses and expand the ones you have, but the new warehouses take additional power and the expansions have an ever-increasing cost. It forces you to balance your production, your sell rate, and your expenses. That, to me, is "fun".The situation we're in now is that there is no incentive to balance your production and sales rate. You can store an infinite amount of goods, and you pay factory maintenance no matter what, so your incentive is to always have a factory churning out goods since an idle factory is nothing but a money pit. Now I'm not saying to be draconian on the storage capacity. I would think you could tie unit size into unit demand-per-eosian. For example, (made-up numbers) if the ratio is 2 eggs per 1 eosian and 1 airplane per 10000 eosians, an airplace would take up 5000 times the storage capacity. A store would be able to handle 1000 eosians worth of good per square meter. So a 500 m^2 store could hold 1 million eggs and 50 air planes. (again, totally off the top of my head and made up numbers). Factories would also have the same capacity as a store. So if you have 1000 m^2 worth of factories supplying aircraft to your 500 m^2 store, you could have 150 aircraft in storage before you had to begin utilizing a warehouse. And I in no way think this will reduce B2B sales. If anything, it would vastly increase them. Your cost per unit is smaller in larger production quantities, but you can only store a finite amount. That encourages you to sell quickly, meaning excess units would need to be either exported or listed at the B2B. |
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Cian Kemp RJ: Cian Kemp CO: Cian Kemp Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 183 Karma: 58 Joined: Apr 9, 2012 |
Posted on Jun 2, 2012 If warehouse space did get implemented, b2b would still use up warehouse space. Otherwise folks would just use the b2b as a free warehouse with overpriced goods, yanking them off when they need them.
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Svaha Woodhouse RJ: Svaha CO: Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 27 Karma: 50 Joined: Apr 5, 2012 |
Posted on Jun 2, 2012 (Last edited on Jun 2, 2012) ~to Jim FrazerFirst of all, I'm not very opposite to warehouse system, I'm only very opposite to rot system. But I think only those have cash ended with G need to balance their production and sales rate. Other people won't have too much money to stock a lot unused goods in their warehouse. And for easy management(especially for those running supermarkets), they'll need to store relatively large amount of goods than others who running a store with less production needed to be managed. If the warehouse was implemented, the warehouse fee should be balanced well to not heavy those not rich and at the same time restrain the over stock of the rich. If it's tend to heavy both the rich and the not rich's burden, those not rich will do produce less and the rich will do buy less. If it's to only charge a too light fee, it can't encourage people to balance their production and sales rate(at least not enforce them to do it). How to set the warehouse fee will be an important and hard issue. In real world, normally companies will choose to build their warehouses near their stores and in a low-price land. I think it's the same for those companies in this game, so if it only cost a low fee, it can only prevent those super rich people to pool their money in B2B. Thus, will reduce the B2B economy. It might not be good unless you think those super rich's purchase is not healthy to the market for some reasons I don't know. Conclusion:if warehouses are necessary, the warehouse fee will be a hard issue for implementation without a big impact to the economy which may cause people shouting at the boss. |
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ryan hofmann RJ: Kurtus Kurt Kurtington CO: Doctor Kurt Hofmann Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 23 Karma: 10 Joined: Apr 10, 2012 |
Posted on Jun 2, 2012 I've thought about this and I say ugh. I don't want to manage having item rot, though quality would decay as tech increases as fluff for the airplanes and other "hard" items. Seriously, every year there is a new mac or ipad. What gives? Next year there'll be the macbook smog or something.
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Marshall Delstrego RJ: Marshall Delstrego CO: Marshall Delstrego Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 50 Karma: 33 Joined: May 1, 2012 |
Posted on Jun 3, 2012 ~To Svaha Woodhouse:the more you produce, the cheaper it costs to produce. The more you *store*, the more it costs to store. So your goal is to *move* your already-produced items (or use them for other things), as fast as possible, and not merely stockpile them forever (although given the time frames of the game, it's something that should probably kick off 3-4 days after the item(s) have been produced, and definitely not while they're still being produced since they don't exist yet, then) The warehouse limit system can actually be really bad - it doesn't force you to balance production with sales/usage, it just puts a hard limit on how much you can store (and what happens when you have nowhere to store your freshly-produced items?), and hurts even short-term storage. ~To: ryan hofmann you don't need to *manage* it, you need to be aware that it exists. If your stable inventory loses 0.5% of its value per RL day after the first week, either by disappearing or just costing you that much money, it will hopefully make you more interested in selling the inventory off (and so much more competitive pricing, since having your stuff being very overpriced is now costing you money) and |
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Svaha Woodhouse RJ: Svaha CO: Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 27 Karma: 50 Joined: Apr 5, 2012 |
Posted on Jun 3, 2012 You don't actually know what the production process is, do you?All the product you produced is completed one after another, not come out all of a sudden at the last minute when your production time is finished. That's why if you interrupt the production, you'll still get some goods. And I don't understand why you insist on item rot system as if people put a lot of unused goods in their warehouse, they'll get a bonus or interests. Of course every person would be glad to see all their goods to be sold quickly after they are produced. The problem is, in real life, a store keeper can have say like whole 20 days to sell the eggs he bought from a farm. But twenty days will only be 9.33 hours in the game. Now please tell me, if you have to manage say like 80 kinds of food(supermarket) and all of them will rotten in 9.33 hours to 36 hours(for realism purpos only canned food may be possible to stay eatable for longer preserved time),how much time should you take to sit in front of the computer? If you sleep 8 hours, when you wake up your eggs and milk may become unable to be sold. If you go to work or school for 10 hours,you may find your bacon is stinky. The same thing may happen frequently if you put the rot system in the game, because food gets rotten must be quick for realism purpose. This is a simulation webgame, not a MMORPG which need people to focus on playing it for 10 hours or more every days. If you need to set the alarm to wake you up in the midnight to sell your goods on time to prevent it from rotting, little will have the stamina and health to play this game. If you set the rotting time as 3-4 days or a decay rate of 0.5% per day, it's not realistic at all for most of foods can't be preserved for 5 to 7 months and 0.5% decaying rate daily is definitely too low for 1.7 month. If you say "whatever, I don't care about realism." then please tell me why you urgently want to make people clean out their warehouse within 3-4 days? As I said, put the unused goods in warehouse has no meaning for any gaming purpos. I believe every one is trying to sell out their goods right after they produce them. Why I am sure? Because this is a game to simulate making money as a businessman. Why do you think a businessman would rather stock the goods in their warehouse and get nothing instead of selling them to profit? Have a rotten time limit will only cause lots of people unable to play this game as they have normal life activities. |
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Michael Tsui RJ: Reisen CO: Reisen Udongein Inaba Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 45 Karma: 30 Joined: Apr 26, 2012 |
Posted on Jun 5, 2012 I don't think rotting should be done for realism. It should be done to reduce hoarding and make sure people sell things as soon as they are produced, and force people to dump on B2B if rotting rate is bad enough.
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Svaha Woodhouse RJ: Svaha CO: Post Rating: 1 + / - Total Posts: 27 Karma: 50 Joined: Apr 5, 2012 |
Posted on Jun 5, 2012 If you force people to sell their goods on B2B with Rotting system with a bad enough rate, the price competition will become extremely tough.Do you know what it mean if people sell water with 0.04 each? That means he loss 1% for every unit of water he sold(0.03 is the cost, 10% commission, 16% tax). This was happened yesterday. Do you still think the B2B's goods prices should be more competitive? And as I said above, by no reason will people keep their goods unused instead of sell them for a profit. Put rotting system to force them clean their warehouse will only cause every one needs to calculate how many raw material they may need and only produce or buy the accurate amount otherwise the material will be rotten. You can easily produce or buy accurate amount. But it'll be annoying to calculate out how many raw materials you need to produce the product since produce 1000 unit of goods won't equal to produce 10 times of 100 unit of goods. Thus it'll be a torture for every one. The more the limits exist, the less aggressive the market will be. If you want B2B to be more competitive, cut the commission to 0% and let the goods sold on B2B be free of tax. |
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Michael Tsui RJ: Reisen CO: Reisen Udongein Inaba Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 45 Karma: 30 Joined: Apr 26, 2012 |
Posted on Jun 6, 2012 if the industry overproduces, it should fail under its weight, unless its artificially propped up.
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Svaha Woodhouse RJ: Svaha CO: Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 27 Karma: 50 Joined: Apr 5, 2012 |
Posted on Jun 6, 2012 As you can see, even the industry overproduced, people is still trying to sell their goods, even if its weight may cause they have to lose money.So it's not necessary to put on rot system to urge people clean their warehouse as they are aggressive enough to sell their stock. |
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Marshall Delstrego RJ: Marshall Delstrego CO: Marshall Delstrego Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 50 Karma: 33 Joined: May 1, 2012 |
Posted on Jun 12, 2012 > Do you still think the B2B's goods prices should be more competitive?YES. yes I do. There are a *few* highly competitive markets, and a LOT of stuff which just one person has which has insanely high prices. And he can keep it at those insanely high prices forever, because that once-a-month sale pays for itself. If you have item rot, this becomes painful. This will force people to expand into other markets, because now just sitting on top of that water until someone buys out the B2B and the prices go back up is not an option. |
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