Login

Ratjoy.com » Forums » Ratjoy.com General Discussion » 5/11 Changes

5/11 Changes

Scott (Admin) RJ: Ratan Joyce CO: Ratan Joyce Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 1175 Karma: 5083 Joined: Jan 13, 2012	Posted on May 11, 2012 I'll take Bob's "efficiency loss for empty shelves" into consideration. This is a game after all and it makes more sense this way. What happens when a item changes quality/average price? It'll be left untouched until you adjust the price manually, which will NOT be hard after the interface change. If I understand this correctly, in order to sell the roughly 80 goods that a Farmer's Market can produce, process and sell internally I would need to build and manage 10 markets individually, but each need only be 1/10 the size to achieve similar sales. Correct? Correct.
Innocent Bystander RJ: Matthew Matician Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 76 Karma: 54 Joined: Apr 2, 2012	Posted on May 11, 2012 I think that being able to run 100% efficiency with just a few slots would really make this game a lot more interesting strategy-wise and allow people a big way to differentiate themselves from other businesses. I don't think that "no efficiency loss for empty shelves" will harm b2b the way that some people think it will, though I will admit that there are some unknowns. After running several stores over the last month, some which solely imported, some which were partially self-stocked and partially b2b-stocked, my gut feeling is that it will still be profitable to include b2b items in your stores--this is because the amount of factory time we have is limited and there are diminishing returns for trying to sell more of one item type. I also think that the benefits from increased diversity far outweigh the possible detriments to a different b2b landscape. I don't want to speak for everybody though--can other people chime in on whether they prefer efficiency loss vs no efficiency loss for empty shelves? (If there were some efficiency loss, it would need to be done carefully so that stocking 1 item in all shelves doesn't count as "no shelves empty" -- and balanced against the fact that some stores stock less items than the number of available shelves.)
Innocent Bystander RJ: Matthew Matician Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 76 Karma: 54 Joined: Apr 2, 2012	Posted on May 11, 2012 While I'm thinking about it, I think that another big plus to "no efficiency loss" is that it increases the reward of building factories. Everyone seems to have figured out that the easiest way to make the most money is to run a huge store, make minimal amounts of your own things, and import/b2b most items in a store. I think that stores are massively overpowered compared to factories & R&D right now and this change would allow factories (and hence R&D) to become more rewarding.
Andrew Naples RJ: Clemen Salad CO: Clemen Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 214 Karma: 89 Joined: Apr 26, 2012	Posted on May 11, 2012 I'm really concerned about B2b, why would anyone stock things they don't make? For example, someone with a fruit/plantation business will have to import stuff to fill up a farmers market. Now they don't need to. Repeat for literally any other business. On a different more opinion based note. This makes me sad because I take pride in finally being able to supply all my own electronics/appliances for my stores myself. Now I have to choose.
Innocent Bystander RJ: Matthew Matician Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 76 Karma: 54 Joined: Apr 2, 2012	Posted on May 11, 2012 Good question. I can think of two different reasons I would still use B2B heavily: 1) I'm limited to how much I can make by the size of my factories (and therefore limited to how much I can sell). Also, there are diminishing returns for selling so many of one item type (both because demand met rises to >100% and because selling 2x the number of items often only brings in a small increase in actual profits) -- on the other hand, b2b (or import) has no time cost for me, and is 'free money' provided the profits/tick is bigger than the differential between selling x and x+1 items per tick. 2) The bigger reason, though, and the one that (to me) seems like the primary purpose of B2B is to buy ingredients that I use in making my own stuff. Again, because I have a finite number of land slots and a finite amount of factory time, it's more profitable to me to build the last step of my product and import any ingredients they require that I don't make--whether because I don't have enough time or because there are too many ingredients to make myself.
Jim Eikner RJ: Jim Eikner Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 23 Karma: 21 Joined: Apr 12, 2012	Posted on May 11, 2012 (Last edited on May 11, 2012) Yes, B2B is hosed. I have already identified half a dozen micro-stores where I can average a 1000% or better markup over cost by making my own stuff with simple one or zero step manufacturing. Why on earth would I settle for a 100% margin or less to fill one of my eight precious slots, especially since empty slots simple expand the sales of the filled ones? Consider the example of oatmeal: It currently has a markup of 4700% over cost. Make a butt-load of oatmeal (grow oats and run them through a Food Processing Plant) as the only product in your store and twiddle your thumbs while you count your money. Not only will no one buy from the B2B (or Import) but no one will produce for it either. With the heavy demands on manufacturing to keep up with products selling at 10X or higher rates in stores there will be little or no slack for servicing the B2B clients. Whole new game...
Andrew Naples RJ: Clemen Salad CO: Clemen Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 214 Karma: 89 Joined: Apr 26, 2012	Posted on May 11, 2012 Im not too concerned about base ingredients (like iron ore and stuff) going away so much as final products becoming pointless on B2b. Like a company I managed was a giant bakery that made all sorts of goods like cookies pies etc. Why would anyone buy all the dozens of products he makes on b2b when someone could literally make 1 item and get a much better profit. To extend this to an individual seller. Why would they stock more than one item in a store? If you research other final products, you are wasting that on perfecting the single product and lose profit. It could take a lot of the fun of making all the cool stuff out of the game.
Jack Park RJ: Jack Park CO: Cicero Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 19 Karma: 26 Joined: Apr 15, 2012	Posted on May 11, 2012 "1) I'm limited to how much I can make by the size of my factories (and therefore limited to how much I can sell). Also, there are diminishing returns for selling so many of one item type (both because demand met rises to >100% and because selling 2x the number of items often only brings in a small increase in actual profits) -- on the other hand, b2b (or import) has no time cost for me, and is 'free money' provided the profits/tick is bigger than the differential between selling x and x+1 items per tick." You would also be limited by the size of your store, and given that it would be more profitable and totally possible under the new rules to just vertically integrate all your stores and all of your factories. When one good became over supplied you would simply move unto vertical integration of other goods. Why not just build all of the same store and produce 8 final goods and sell them all yourself? All of B2B demand would be temporary as you adjust factories and stores to maximize your profits, which under the proposed system would mean vertical integration of all final products. "The bigger reason, though, and the one that (to me) seems like the primary purpose of B2B is to buy ingredients that I use in making my own stuff. Again, because I have a finite number of land slots and a finite amount of factory time, it's more profitable to me to build the last step of my product and import any ingredients they require that I don't make--whether because I don't have enough time or because there are too many ingredients to make myself." Your right in that B2B would still exist as a place to sell indgrediants, but there would be hardly anyone selling on B2B for final goods when they could just put them in their own stores. And again hardly anyone would be buying anyway, since you would have 8 factories producing 8 final goods and just buy the indgrediants. You would stock the store with those consumer goods and not bother to stock anything else. Further more stores that don't specialize are as succesful if not more succesful than those stores that do specialize. Wallmart is the obvious example, it sells every thing. There would be no incentive to sell everything like wallmart does in this game if the proposed store changes were to be implemented. This is supposed to be a business simulation and it would give no incentive to establsih one of the most well known brands, of all time.
Alexia Perdhaer RJ: Alexia Perdhaer Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 100 Karma: 30 Joined: Apr 6, 2012	Posted on May 12, 2012 Changing the game so you only have to sell one or two products seems kind of boring. To me, at least.
Alexia Perdhaer RJ: Alexia Perdhaer Post Rating: 6 + / - Total Posts: 100 Karma: 30 Joined: Apr 6, 2012	Posted on May 12, 2012 I just got my company set up so that I have all bakery, food processing, plantation, dairy processing and fruit plantation in constant supply in my farmers market, cafes, supermarkets, gas station and food court, and almost there with confectionary and beverage. From this glorious, chaotic complexity producing 156 products for sale in something resembling an orderly rotation, many of which are ingredients, along with some 20 or so ingredients that aren't sold, it's going to become choosing 8 things to produce and sell? But the complexity is why I wanted to play. It's in the tagline.
Bob Malone RJ: Bob Malone CO: Malone Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 341 Karma: 191 Joined: Apr 17, 2012	Posted on May 12, 2012 Maybe we can take also the other way. Standard is still 8 shelves. Each time you left one empty, you lose 10 % sale power. But you can add some, up to 30, and each time you add one ( and use it ), you gain 5 % sale power. Example : 8 shelves -> 100 sale power -> 12.5 sale power for each item 4 shelves -> 60 sale power -> 15 each 1 shelve -> 30 sale power -> 30 each 20 shelves -> 160 sale power -> 8 each 30 shelves -> 210 sale power -> 7 each So specialization still exist, but multi offering is still rewarded globally. Maybe some of you will say : "ok so everyone will use 30 shelves, as it offers the best sale power" ... This is not so obvious, because is it better to sell only 8 items with high margin and, individually high sale power, rather than 30 items with some of them from import/B2B, with lowest margin and individually less sale power ? To be honest it seems to me very hard to balance globally and it's hard to anticipate side effects which may happen in the game/economy. What is sure is that B2B Market will be different after this change.
Andrew Naples RJ: Clemen Salad CO: Clemen Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 214 Karma: 89 Joined: Apr 26, 2012	Posted on May 12, 2012 I've already noticed a change in the raw materials market since the quality merge. Usually people throw up their lesser quality ingredients as they research but that source is gone now. Stuff's still there but in lesser quantity, still usable though.But whats really concerning is that I really don't see how this store change won't kill the b2b market for any kind of finished good. So I'm a fledgling electronics/appliance power. (was about to make an ad on company forum as my huge factories are almost built). I have 20+ research on almost everything the electronics store sells. I was planning on selling these products on B2b as well because I noticed few people sell electronics/appliances on there. Filling a niche. My customer base will be cut by 90+ percent for two reasons: 1. If a person has an electronics store and has factories for it. This person instead of buying extra stuff on b2b to fill in gaps now only needs one product to get full sale power. In fact, it is in their best interest to do that with one high quality high margin item. (as is now my best interest) 2. A person has an electronics store without any of the factories. Instead of buying a full complement of my merchandise. They will only buy one item to get full benefit. I guess I just don't understand why this is all being changed in the first place. This change greatly shrinks a huge draw of the game, making lots of cool items to sell to player and stocking stores. I'd be actively harming myself by not just researching the hell out of the highest margin item and only using the store power for that. And frankly that's a lot less fun then trying to supply as much of my electronics store as possible. This isn't even going into the satisfaction of selling stuff to fellow players on B2b. I've been trying to visualize how this change improves the game but I'm just not seeing it. Wow, sorry for the wall o' text.
Jim Eikner RJ: Jim Eikner Post Rating: 1 + / - Total Posts: 23 Karma: 21 Joined: Apr 12, 2012	Posted on May 12, 2012 (Last edited on May 12, 2012) I see this as a move from quantity to quality, from managing mountains of low margin drek to finding and making the highest margin items you can. And it will be a moving target. With everyone jumping on the wagon demand could evaporate and prices tumble in an instant. Flexibility and the ability to rapidly adapt will certainly gain in importance. More like a commodities market than a retail setting. I see the B2B retail business shrinking and it becoming more of a parts warehouse where you can grab what you're missing to quickly cobble together the next Big Thing. Mostly low end, tiny margin stuff that no one would put in a store but has a lot of possible applications. Flour, for example... Edit: As an example, here's an analysis of the products available to a Farmer's Market. The highlighted number to the top right is the average markup ((price-cost)/cost) of the top 8 items: http://goo.gl/Mi54Y
Jack Park RJ: Jack Park CO: Cicero Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 19 Karma: 26 Joined: Apr 15, 2012	Posted on May 12, 2012 "8 shelves -> 100 sale power -> 12.5 sale power for each item 4 shelves -> 60 sale power -> 15 each 1 shelve -> 30 sale power -> 30 each 20 shelves -> 160 sale power -> 8 each 30 shelves -> 210 sale power -> 7 each So specialization still exist, but multi offering is still rewarded globally. Maybe some of you will say : "ok so everyone will use 30 shelves, as it offers the best sale power" ... This is not so obvious, because is it better to sell only 8 items with high margin and, individually high sale power, rather than 30 items with some of them from import/B2B, with lowest margin and individually less sale power?" I don't know if that represents it adequatly, since it is possible to increase number of goods sold and still inrease or keep static the number of each good sold. What we need is a mechanism that makes big box and specialized stores almost equally viable, as they are in real life.Eventually you should reach a point where customers come to your store for one thing but see a bunch of toehr things on the way and decide to buy those too. Wallmart does this with milk, the milk is always at the back of the store so you have to look at everything before you reach the milk, increasing the odss of purchases of other goods. Costco has the same effect, while you are shopping for what you want you see a bunch of other things that you also might want and decide to buy those too. In this vein I would suggest bonuses for selling more goods in a store after a certain point, to represnt the fact that your increased selection would attract more customers. Have it be half size as the bonus applied to specialized stores, so that people who want higher margins by just selling their own goods in a store can do that, and people who want more profits in total by selling a larger number of goods can do that. If this game does not account for and encourage big box stores than it is not representing a fundamental part of the retail sector.
Andrew Naples RJ: Clemen Salad CO: Clemen Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 214 Karma: 89 Joined: Apr 26, 2012	Posted on May 12, 2012 "I see this as a move from quantity to quality, from managing mountains of low margin drek to finding and making the highest margin items you can. And it will be a moving target. With everyone jumping on the wagon demand could evaporate and prices tumble in an instant. Flexibility and the ability to rapidly adapt will certainly gain in importance. More like a commodities market than a retail setting. I see the B2B retail business shrinking and it becoming more of a parts warehouse where you can grab what you're missing to quickly cobble together the next Big Thing. Mostly low end, tiny margin stuff that no one would put in a store but has a lot of possible applications. Flour, for example..." I see your point and understand it, the problem is I just don't see how this is an improvement to what we have now. Low quality and high variety is a completely valid business strategy in the real world and effectively taking that out of the game kinda hurts it and would take alot of the fun out of the game. There's a few hundred products and in order to have the highest profit having to pick just ONE product to research and vertically integrate kinda shrinks the game itself.

You need to register or login to post a reply.

© 2012 Ratjoy.com Server Time: April 23, 2024, 8:19 AM